Should Abortion and Suicide be Crimes?
April 1st 2008 05:06
It may seem strange to link abortion and suicide in the same question like this, asking the question whether they should be crimes. Perhaps it even makes you a little mad. It makes me angry and I’m the one who wrote it. I’m not even sure why it makes me mad. It just does.
I think it’s because they both used to be illegal. At one time, both suicide and abortion were considered crimes because they involved the taking of a human life. As the taking of a human life was considered wrong, suicide and abortion were classed as crimes. If you attempted suicide, you were placed in jail. If you had an abortion, you were placed in jail. If you were successful in a suicide attempt, your body was not allowed to be buried in hallowed ground.
Things are a little different now. Abortion is legal, provided it is done through the legal channels available and within the appropriate timeframe. Doctors will give you information on how you can get an abortion and refer you to a clinic. This is a pretty controversial subject and many people believe that abortion should be illegal. They want it to go back to being a crime.
Suicide also is no longer considered a crime. Although it is illegal to assist someone in a suicide, we don’t throw people in jail for attempting it. Now forgetting about the issue of Euthanasia, which is a separate issue that I’m not going to address here, I don’t think many people would consider this a bad thing.
When suicide was a crime, people who attempted it were simply thrown into jail with no help available and no effort to try and understand why this person would want to do this. Now that it is no longer a crime, we can take steps to actually stopping the problem. We discuss suicide – probably not as much as we should do, but we do discuss it. People can admit to having suicidal thoughts in the past. Those that currently have a desire to commit suicide can discuss it with a good friend, a counselor or a phone line, without fearing that they’ll end up behind bars. We get help for those that try and commit suicide, perhaps giving them the tools and resources to assist them in getting their life back on track.
None of these things would be possible if suicide was still a crime. But somewhere along the way, society changed its attitudes. We stopped debating whether suicide was right or wrong, and sought only to understand. We stopped seeing it as a crime and saw it as a problem that needed resolving. We stopped judging and starting the healing process. Kind of a bit like what I think Jesus would do.
The abortion issue is completely different. Although it’s no longer a crime, for some reason, when it comes to abortion, it’s still a matter of right or wrong. I was actually asked at my workplace once whether I was pro-life or pro-choice. As if it was that simple. It should never be that simple. And I certainly don’t want to go into all the reasons why I am either one or the other and how I came to that belief.
I don’t see abortion as a matter of right or wrong. I see it as something that needs healing. We’re too busy pointing the finger and trying to prove that we are right, that we are forgetting that there are women out there (women who are considering an abortion, women who are facing an unwanted pregnancy and women who have had an abortion) that need healing. There’s no point in telling people that having an abortion is wrong if it doesn’t help give them strategies for coping with an unwanted pregnancy.
If we’re pro-life we tell people that they shouldn’t have an abortion because it’s murder. If we’re pro-choice we tell people that it’s their choice and they shouldn’t let anyone tell them what to do. Does any of this really help?
And we don’t listen to each other. We don’t want to. We just want to get across our point of view. I wish that the pro-lifers would realise that having a baby can completely ruin a woman’s life. I wish that the pro-choicers would realise that having an abortion can cause a huge emotional effect on a woman and cause scars that never go away. I wish we would all just listen to each other and work on resolving the issue.
I recently attended a suicide prevention seminar. It was very enlightening and I learnt a lot about suicide that I never knew before. Seminars and organisations are seeking to open up dialogue about suicide and get people talking about it. Okay, so this comes from the place that we don’t want people to commit suicide at all and pro-choicers would probably say that this is completely different from the case of abortion.
But I would love for that kind of dialogue and discussion to open up around abortion. Let’s talk about it. Let’s hear about the women who have emotional damage from past abortions. Let’s gather resources and strategies for pregnant mothers that can help them cope with unwanted pregnancies. Let’s hear from the women who made the choice to have an abortion, knowing that the alternative would be unbearable.
Perhaps you’re even angrier now than when you originally read the title of this article. But maybe you’re wondering, maybe you’re questioning, maybe you’re seeking to understand. I really hope so. Because that’s how the healing process begins.
I think it’s because they both used to be illegal. At one time, both suicide and abortion were considered crimes because they involved the taking of a human life. As the taking of a human life was considered wrong, suicide and abortion were classed as crimes. If you attempted suicide, you were placed in jail. If you had an abortion, you were placed in jail. If you were successful in a suicide attempt, your body was not allowed to be buried in hallowed ground.
Things are a little different now. Abortion is legal, provided it is done through the legal channels available and within the appropriate timeframe. Doctors will give you information on how you can get an abortion and refer you to a clinic. This is a pretty controversial subject and many people believe that abortion should be illegal. They want it to go back to being a crime.
Suicide also is no longer considered a crime. Although it is illegal to assist someone in a suicide, we don’t throw people in jail for attempting it. Now forgetting about the issue of Euthanasia, which is a separate issue that I’m not going to address here, I don’t think many people would consider this a bad thing.
When suicide was a crime, people who attempted it were simply thrown into jail with no help available and no effort to try and understand why this person would want to do this. Now that it is no longer a crime, we can take steps to actually stopping the problem. We discuss suicide – probably not as much as we should do, but we do discuss it. People can admit to having suicidal thoughts in the past. Those that currently have a desire to commit suicide can discuss it with a good friend, a counselor or a phone line, without fearing that they’ll end up behind bars. We get help for those that try and commit suicide, perhaps giving them the tools and resources to assist them in getting their life back on track.
None of these things would be possible if suicide was still a crime. But somewhere along the way, society changed its attitudes. We stopped debating whether suicide was right or wrong, and sought only to understand. We stopped seeing it as a crime and saw it as a problem that needed resolving. We stopped judging and starting the healing process. Kind of a bit like what I think Jesus would do.
The abortion issue is completely different. Although it’s no longer a crime, for some reason, when it comes to abortion, it’s still a matter of right or wrong. I was actually asked at my workplace once whether I was pro-life or pro-choice. As if it was that simple. It should never be that simple. And I certainly don’t want to go into all the reasons why I am either one or the other and how I came to that belief.
I don’t see abortion as a matter of right or wrong. I see it as something that needs healing. We’re too busy pointing the finger and trying to prove that we are right, that we are forgetting that there are women out there (women who are considering an abortion, women who are facing an unwanted pregnancy and women who have had an abortion) that need healing. There’s no point in telling people that having an abortion is wrong if it doesn’t help give them strategies for coping with an unwanted pregnancy.
If we’re pro-life we tell people that they shouldn’t have an abortion because it’s murder. If we’re pro-choice we tell people that it’s their choice and they shouldn’t let anyone tell them what to do. Does any of this really help?
And we don’t listen to each other. We don’t want to. We just want to get across our point of view. I wish that the pro-lifers would realise that having a baby can completely ruin a woman’s life. I wish that the pro-choicers would realise that having an abortion can cause a huge emotional effect on a woman and cause scars that never go away. I wish we would all just listen to each other and work on resolving the issue.
I recently attended a suicide prevention seminar. It was very enlightening and I learnt a lot about suicide that I never knew before. Seminars and organisations are seeking to open up dialogue about suicide and get people talking about it. Okay, so this comes from the place that we don’t want people to commit suicide at all and pro-choicers would probably say that this is completely different from the case of abortion.
But I would love for that kind of dialogue and discussion to open up around abortion. Let’s talk about it. Let’s hear about the women who have emotional damage from past abortions. Let’s gather resources and strategies for pregnant mothers that can help them cope with unwanted pregnancies. Let’s hear from the women who made the choice to have an abortion, knowing that the alternative would be unbearable.
Perhaps you’re even angrier now than when you originally read the title of this article. But maybe you’re wondering, maybe you’re questioning, maybe you’re seeking to understand. I really hope so. Because that’s how the healing process begins.
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Comment by Brenton
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If you oppose abortion the best thing you can do is to adopt a child and look after them properly = it's one thing to say people should follow alternative options and another to help make that alternative viable and appealing.
Comment by katyzzz
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As for abortion that's a crime against humanity, irresponsible people, self indulgent who would Kill their own offspring.
People are disgusting there's no other way to put it.
Comment by swanston1
Justice for all?
Breaking the cycle.
mmappmusic
As for Abortion...if they dont want kids they should simply keep their organs zipped up and legs closed. There are way to many unwanted kids and the Government support it by offering bonuses to give birth. WOW...three thousand dollars from the government to support a child for the next 18 years. This is targeted at the poor...which is obvious it will generate a higher population of poor in the future.
Then on the other hand a personal experience, I have tried to have a child a few times, both times i slipped into a coma at nine weeks and had to have terminations both times. The doctors said I would have died, due to some very rare deformity I was born with.
People should be smart and keep themselves zipped up and closed, thats the only way to sop this rubbish from happening, but then there are medical emergencies as myself where a termination has to be made to save your life....until people learn to be a bit more....smart with their vaginas and penises, and only until then, this may stop happening.
Rock on
Sarah
Comment by Jarrah
Back to the Eighties
Who can deny that abortion is the absolute pinnacle of un-responsibility?
Plus, I'm almost certain suicide is still illegal...
- Jarrah
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Comment by samaritan
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Thanks for your comments. It's a pity though that we seem to be stuck on the path of it's wrong or right, instead of truly seeking to understand why people choose abortion and how we can help those people considering it. When we criticise people for ending up in that situation or for considering abortion as an option, we only alienate them and probably make it more likely that they will have an abortion.
In relation to the suicide, people used to be put in jail simply for attempting a suicide. It was seen as a crime and was treated as such. Now we give them help, instead of prosecuting them.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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Comment by Mountain Fog
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QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
I don't think anyone can make 'global assumptions, in regards to the state of suicide and even abortion, as they are indeed illegal in many parts of the world today.
That said, I would like to add one historical footnote; suicide in Britain used to be punishable by...death!
I know...how utterly ludicrous!
It is as ludicrous as people presuming they know the reasons, motivations, of a woman deciding to take that step, to abort the child she is carrying.
It is her business, her choice. Unless it is a woman who is merely afraid, or has some other overt psychiatric problem, then counselling may indeed help I suspect, otherwise, we should, as a community, stay out of it!
The horror practise of backyard abortionists are the reason it was legalised, so women who were raped, who were under age, unmarried in a religious community, whatever the reason, could address the situation they were in.
To think we can find a rationale that fits all commers, is naive.
Leave it to the woman and her doctor, and anyone she chooses to let in on her confidence.
As for suiciders, I see the odd comment here that again proves how little people know of what goes on for someone in that state.
This area should be openly discussed in all schools and on TV etc, to educate the ignorant about what happens in a suicidal person's mind, and I am not actually talking about "attention seekers", because when you analyse their situation, you find they were asking for help, the determined suicider does not, and those few that survive, by some unlucky stroke, as they would see it, can tell you it is not being purposely selfish, it is not done to hurt others, it is a ceasing of existence spiritually, mentally and, eventually, they hope physically.
So, in a nutshell, I agree these areas should be discussed in a non-judgemental open way, devoid of religious morality, and slanted towards educating people, especially the youth, so they may be more compassionate towards those who find themselves in these situations.
cheers
fog
Comment by Philippa
GAY SCHMAY
The ugly truth
Have times changed?
suicide is hard to understand.. i mean who knows what goes through someones mind before they decide to end thier life... but just because someone has committed suicide i dont think they should forever be remembered as someone who was weak...
Both topics, however taboo they may be, must be discussed..especially suicide...if we dont talk about it then we will never discover how prevent people from ending thier own lives...
Comment by S.L.
The Political Brief
The other one killed himself over a divorce and wound up ruining the lives of his children. Not to mention the damage he did to the rest of his family.
I'm not saying that suicide is acceptable, but some reasons are easier to understand and deal with than others.
Whatever the rationale, the vast majority of abortions are still done out of callousness and selfishness. The actual percentage of real medical necessity is very small. There are plenty of birth control devices and methods available for women who really don't want to get pregnant. Schools hammer "sex education" into the students, talking more about abortion than abstinance, and even giving out birth control for free. "Unwanted pregnancies" should have long since become a thing of the past.
Comment by RubySoho
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35% of American schools teach abstinence-only sex education. No prizes for guessing why and where most of these schools are located.
No prizes either for guessing which western country has the highest rates of teen pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion.
From the Kaiser Institute:
• Only 14% of public school districts with a policy to teach sexuality education address abstinence as one option in a broader educational program to prepare adolescents to become sexually healthy adults. 10
• Over 1/2 of the districts in the South with a policy to teach sexuality education have an abstinence-only policy, compared with 20% of such districts in the Northeast.
And Sarah how hypocritical of you, justifying your own abortions but trying to deny other women the same right. You are aware that most pro-lifers would prefer to let you die rather than terminate your fetus right? In fact, in countries such as those in Central America, you would have been denied an abortion and would no longer be with us. Think long and hard about what you are saying.
Thanks for this great post. Finally, people who aren't afraid to tell it like it is- there are many reasons women have abortions. 1.5 million abortions every year in the US alone. Are all these women evil? Are they all irresponsible? Are they all selfish? Or are most of them just absolutely terrified?
Comment by RubySoho
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cheers,
Comment by Don Lee
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Comment by RubySoho
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I didn't know Buddhists hated gays...
Comment by Morgan Bell
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was that really on the curriculum?
well i guess homosexuality is the most effective form of birth control . . .
some christian doctors in Australia (usually in regional areas) refuse to prescribe girls birth control (the contraceptive pill) as it against their religion . . . it has happened to two people of my acquaintance . . . sometimes even people trying to do the right thing are fobbed off and made to feel guilty . . . i imagine this probably happens in the USA and other countries as well
Comment by Don Lee
White Line Philosophy
I didnt see the paperwork on it Morgan. She complained to me about having to watch gays holding hands and kissing on campus while she wasnt allowed to hold hands with her boyfriend. Her sex ed class made them study alternative lifestyles and told them they should accept and appreciate gays because they were superior people and those who didnt like it were bad. My grandaughter is not interested in alternative lifestyles and didn;'t want it shoved at her.
Comment by Right Coast Moralist
Read Sarah's comment again Ruby.
... had to take a sex ed class and they never mentioned abstinence, just birth control, abortion and how to love gays.
Don, is that really true or simply misstated?
Comment by Norm
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Comment by samaritan
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Morgan Bell, I actually appreciate a right for a doctor to not prescribe the contraceptive pill because of religious beliefs. The woman can always go to another doctor where it won't be a conscious issue.
A couple of you have mentioned about what sex education is like in schools. I think if people disagree with the sex education their children are getting at school, they should make sure that they provide their own sex education at home.
Samaritan
Comment by RubySoho
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I wasn't talking about your granddaughter, I was talking about you.
And I would like to see proof of this:
Right Coast Moralist, what did I miss in Sarah's post?
Comment by Don Lee
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Comment by RubySoho
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Can I just politely explain to you that writing statements such as sex ed "taught her to love gays" actually reeks of homophobia? I am not gay and even I could smell it from here.
Secondly, I'm sure that you are telling the truth by saying your granddaughter was educated on alternative lifestyles, however, I am doubtful that any school would actually push the view that gay people were "superior" to straight people.
Whether you and your granddaughter approve of their lifestyle or not, the fact is they exist, they are not going to go away just to make you happy and it is not going to kill you learn the reality of their lives as opposed to the stereotypes that abound.
After all, gay people have mainstream lifestyles shoved in their faces everywhere they go don't they?
Comment by Anonymous
After all, He who is without sin casts the first stone.. right?
What a fantastic article. It is undeniably true that as we rush in and try to form black and white opinions on right and wrong, those who are in need of love and support are left outside in the cold.
Comment by Don Lee
White Line Philosophy
The wife and I have sex, after all weve been married a long time and we have kids, but neither one of us thinks we have to discuss it with anyone. It isn't something that has to be talked about all the time. At least for anyone with class. I dont care what other people do in bed, as long as they dont tell me all the details.
Bedrooms are like Vegas. What happens there should stay there. It doesn't have to be blasted at kids in school.
Comment by Dea
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Both require professional emotional assistance.
Both require compassion from the public (in most cases).
The reasons behind each decision lay solely with each individual and it is their right and their choice, no one elses.
Holding protests outside clinics is disgusting.
It's not about being a slut or a loser and that mentality needs to be discarded if we are to improve lives.
People are pushed to their limits and most of the time we are able to find the strength within to overcome.
Unfortunately, there are times that the strength is not able to be found.
And outspoken critics tend to give that final push over the edge.
It is hard enough to have to give up a life without then being labelled a murderer.
It is hard enough to lose someone without being told your child or brother or sister or mother or father were a gutless loser.
On the other side of it all, there are those that are continuously careless.
These are the ones that require education.
So my final words upon this topic is this;
Educate and Support, Don't Criticise!
Comment by RubySoho
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No one is saying you have to discuss your own sex life, but teenagers should be aware of what what sex really is, and the consequences it can bring about.
The reason America has such a high rate of teen pregnancy and abortion is because kids are not taught about sex and contraception adequately.
Kids are going to have sex whether we talk to them about it or not. Shouldn't we arm them with as much information as possible beforehand?
Comment by TimmyH
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Some philosophers have suggested that a human being cannot be considered a "Person" until they can recognise themselves in a mirror, in fact until they recognise themselves and perceive their own existence.
According to this theory abortion should be legal up until the point where any animal can perceive its own existence. Therefore an infant might not be considered a "Person" yet a Chimp for example might be. The argument goes that abortion of non-persons should be legal.
What do you all think? Given that we draw a lline for suicide at the end of the first Tri mester, would it not be just as legitimate to draw the line at perceived existence? Im not advocating this, Just suggesting that it is an intersting philosophical debate.
Thankyou,
TimmyH
Comment by S.L.
The Political Brief
By the way, it didn't sound like Don Lee was objecting to all sex education, just agreeing with his granddaughter when she didn't want to know more about gay lifestyles.
Comment by S.L.
The Political Brief
Really Long Link for a series of different ideas on the subject.
Comment by samaritan
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I completely agree with you.
Comment by The wonderful Peter Yang
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As for abortion, well, I think it is alright to have an abortion before the cells form into a baby. (that is within the first three month of the pregancy)
I mean within the first three month, the pregenency is really just a bunch of cells, they are not even really a life.
Comment by RubySoho
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Thanks Bradish, for turning an otherwise civil discussion into yet an other slingfest of insults.
I knew we could all count on you!!!
Comment by Alexander Hine
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While I personally believe that abortion should be legal, it does involve some tricky moral issues to do with intent - that is, what reasons justify abortion appropriately.
I think that suicide is a more important issue than abortion, as suicide represents such a despairing and degraded state of humanity. Though suicide should not be illegal, it should, as you say, be seen as a definite problem.
Well, this is fun,
A. Hine
Comment by Morgan Bell
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i had no idea homosexuals had become the dominant majority in america, i will have to round up all my gay friends in australia and tell them of this wonderful paradise that you describe . . .
no wonder Republicans like Sally Kern are worried about the homosexual threat
its a shame that all this gay-loving education didnt produce enough tolerance for diversity to prevent 15yo Larry King from being shot (in the head) to death in his californian junior high classroom as a homophobic hate crime earlier this year
it saddens me that school aged children are still taught by their parents that it is warranted to be angry or upset about the existance of homosexuals . . . to not be able to be in the same class or school as a gay person (or to listen to the discussion of gay people) is a result of ingrained homophobia
Comment by Anne Tootill
As to scuicide, I don't think I'd tell anyone if I was thinking along those lines, I'd probably be in such a deep black hole, I wouldn't be thinking logically about anything. Any wonder they call it the black dog.
Very interesting, thanks Anne
Comment by KylieW
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Wow, a post around abortion that was well-thought out and rational.....rather than relying on name calling and telling people why you're right!!!
I really liked it.
I don't think either should be illegal. And Im glad that there is support now for people who have tried to commit suicide. But I definitely think that there should be more support for women who are having or contemplating having an abortion. Calling a woman with an unwanted pregnancy a murderer is hardly helping her. I'm staunchly pro-choice, but I do think that a lot of people underestimate just how traumatic having an abortion must be.
I find it repugnant that people would label someone as disgusting for having an abortion........until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes, I doubt any of us are in a position to judge anyone.
Really well balanced post.
Comment by samaritan
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Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, I think most of the people who point their fingers at people and tell them what they're doing is wrong - for whatever reason - are people who have absolutely no idea what it is like to be in that situation.
-Samaritan
Comment by Lee Zachariah
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In all seriousness, nice to read someone finally acknowledging that there's no absolute right or absolute wrong to this issue. Nice work.
Comment by Dea
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Back to the original topic, I started reading your post with some trepidation but ended up really enjoying it. And no, I am not angry, just pleased to see a well rounded point of view. Thanks.
Comment by Dash-2
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One of them you are dead,
the other should just be regulated and only used when absolutely necessary.
Comment by Anonymous
"The other one killed himself over a divorce and wound up ruining the lives of his children. Not to mention the damage he did to the rest of his family."
I wish I could express in a productive and calm fashion how absolutely unbelievable this type of comment and thinking is. It's disgusting and infuriating. It comes from a century of brainwashed commentary not allowing us to stop and think for a moment where that man was, how HE was feeling. His pain was do intolerable HE PICKED THE UNKNOWN OVER THE FAMILIAR. Death is terrifying and unpredictable, leading most people who hate a situation or themselves to opt out and go with some instantly graftifying behavior, usually leading to addiction. (Which would harm the family as well, as would years of failed counselling and the money poured into that, because YES! lots of the time medication and counselling and a healthy lifestyle do NOTHING for mental illness, it's disease in the brain) To pass off the gentleman who took his life as "selfish' is so absurd! It's completely out of context and shows you cannot appreciate or respect his current mental capacity at that time. Every hour I'm struck with the mind-boggling thought of the stereotype of "an open-minded view of suicide", "yes, but it's so self-centred, what about the people left behind?" That's all you ever hear. UHH...! What about the person with the DEBILITATING mind, what about the person wanting to commit suicide? How one can pose that question without in turn thinking, 'hey, maybe it's selfish to lay guilt trips on this individual who is already in a life threatening state; maybe it's self-centred of US to assume he/she should "just work on getting better, seek out help for our sakes". BULLSHIT!! What if YEARRRRSSS have been spent seeking help, countless tens of thousands of dollars wasted? And the patient is just MORE exhausted and now has possibly become so worn out, that apathy has taken ahold...and now the individual will become yet another unemployable case lead to the streets. This is tragic. Or perhaps, they'll spend decades in and out of hospital (costing you YOUR tax dollars) until they die of old age or cancer. No one can accuse anyone as selfish for taking their life without considering it SELFISH to expect this person to draw out their every day for years just for YOUR sake.
Comment by S. L. Bradish
And before you pop off with another smug snotty remark, the man in question was my younger brother. So I think I know a little more about it than you do. Maybe you should ask someone who loves you (if there is such a person) how they would feel if you did away with yourself and left them holding the bag. I'm sure they'd be delighted with your "choice" and very "proud" of you for exercizing that "choice". After all there is NO ONE In THE UNIVERSE more important that a depressed person, right? Nothing as wonderful as suicide, right? Have you been talking to Jack Kevorkian? Oh, that's right, he wants everyone else to die, but wimped out on his suicide by starvation gambit.
Comment by Anne Tootill
So sorry to hear about your brother SL.
Comment by samaritan
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SL, I'm sorry about your brother. Obviously it must be very hard to discuss an issue that has affected you personally. But I don't like comments like
Suicide always hurts someone. And it must be very hard on the people who are left behind. But I think the thing is that people who have suicidal thoughts just don't think clearly. It's not that they don't care about the people that are left behind. It's that they just can't think rationally about it. That's my belief anyway.
Comment by Jarrah
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Man - issues that concern the community huh?
- Jarrah
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Comment by Dash-2
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Comment by Anonymous
So, indeed it's a well-known subject to me...but there's no sense not trying to understand THEIR pain, not just OURS. C'mon, it's not that hard. We're trained to think so linearly. Someone in that state of mind cannot be JUDGED in a linear, rational set of circumstances that all you commenting in here use. It's like someone studying sharp angular cubic paintings seeing a blended charcol painting and saying it's not how it should be. Emotions cannot be judged or written off as analyzed. They hardly make sense when you're arguing with the guy who broke your headlight, much less a loved one, or anyone for that matter, DRIVEN to the paralyzing fear-filled place of suicide. Imagine the pain they were in, imagine that pain multipying for them every moment of them continuing to survive.
I miss my brother every moment, and have become increasingly suicidal over my past years, as well as lately finding I am indeed affected by my grandfather's passing. But I can't go to those thoughts without wanting to cry and melt for all the pain they both must have been feeling (knowing very well I'm only able to imagine a fraction of it). If someone wants to kill themselves after years of living in pain with cancer or an immune disorder, we are able to understand the reasoning behind this. I think we will someday be able to do the same in the case of mental health, which is equally as handicapping; and sadly, much more individual, making treatment more individual, meaning that also there may not always be treatment for every mentally ill person. Millions and millions with HARD work and supportive families and friends can improve or learn to deal with their symptoms or illness; but not all will be able to. I feel we are just not yet at a point in our civilization to see this.
Comment by Anonymous
I too am sorry for your loss.
Thank you, samaritan, for your wise words...we never know what's going on with others. I doubt a high percentage of people would be reading these long posts if it were not something they were likely personally dealing with through even a friend or a neighbour.
I do pose you this though - not as an insult, or retort, or "I'm right, your wrong" thing, just as a thought to open other gateways maybe. Laying awake tomorrow night or whenever just think about (this is keeping in mind your words "think of how horrible it was to have to deal with you dead in a bag, and how "proud" your loved ones would be, etc...having put them in this situation myself, this breeds less "hypothetically speaking" tone), would the love ones feel better and more true to themselves allowing that family member to live on suffering? No, they'd seek help. But if after years and years and countless methods later (and a house mortgage) you were still no better, probably worse...what would you do? It's not as simple as move out and get a job; take responsibility!! No, these people are not being lazy. Many many people physically cannot move around enough, or understand ideas well enough, or maintain any amount of motivation, or even personal hygiene to keep a job. This is part of the disease, and must not be seen as lack of will power (which makes it hard to distinguish because so many of us all are just lazy!). At this point, you may want your loved ones to leave you alone, so they are not so worn down; you have tried off and on for years to "fake" feeling better, wanting nothing more than for them to see you as "happy". This does not last, you cannot hide many of the behaviors or outburts that go along with severe depression. You may be institutionalized. This also does not last; funding runs out. It's all so twisted and complex...there's no right answer. But at the end of many years, you may mostly feel two things 1) you do not want to burden those around you anymore (but can't take responsibility of your own life, we're not talking moderate depression here) and 2)that you still want to die. These individuals are mostly unable to care for themselves. Bills go unpaid, apathy and sorrow even let kids go unfed or unchanged, evenings are filled with pathetic compulsions, or staring at walls rocking yourself while the annoying blare of the skipping cd is even too pointless to get up and change. This is applicable to so many "diagnosis" ' as well. PTST, bi-polar, boderline...In most cases, if strict with medication, schizoprenia, seems more maintainable than the others listed. As my own mental illness deepens, I know I do not want myself watched over by my mother for the rest of her life. That is no life for either of us. I feel so many people are quick to criticize and less quick to offer continuous, unconditional, 24/7 compassion and aid.
It's full-time, mental illness...supportive family and friends - the ones you know you'll hurt by doing something so drastic - are not (and help lines don't quite cut it, although they've got me through many nights). Like I said earlier, look at street peoples' statistics; no matter what area of the globe usually HALF of them are out there what began in a mental illness. It was ignored, or left untreated, or as I see in my line, all too often, their own funding for treatment dries up and they've got no place left to go. There's no funding for mental health! It's an embarassment. If there were torturous voices and images and overwhelming blankets of anger and saddness and hopelessness choking you and you were sent down to an overcrowded centre, I bet a lot of us would turn to booze.
What I take full responsibilty in and know in my core is that unfortunately, were I to take my own life, it serves no purpose whatsoever other than alleviating (what I *think*) is several short moments. As soon, as I leave my body, wherever I go, my soul is still troubled and aching. It's simply yet annootthhherr location change. Many mentally afflicted people are known to move around to escape their pain, new start, yadda yadda, but it never works out. This would be no different. Personally, I believe I must learn to come to some bit of peace with myself and harmony before I can exit this life, this stage of the journey...
I do not KNOW your pain or frustrations or bitter resentments, I am sorry you were plagued with this pain brought on by your brother's death, a pain your choices and behaviors had nothing to do with, that is shitty. But I can hear and take in what you are saying and acknowledge it. But I GUARANTEE you those feelings will only maifest and brew until you are able to see your brother's act in a loving light, in a way he *might* have even slightly felt at the time, not only will you "say" you've forgiven him, you truly will know you have and you will love him even more as a brother to you, a brother you had...and as cheesy as this sounds, more love in our hearts is what breeds life and truth and authenticity and goodness. It sounds like I know this from years of wise experience or something, haha, nooooo! No, no...it's just an accumulation of yeaaarrrsss of therapy (ick ick!), reading spirituial books and grasping at meaningful ideologies and mostly piecing together what I see and know so obviously inside already to be true...which is what we all know fundamentally; and what keeps me going - looking forward to learning more of that.
Take care
Comment by Morgan Bell
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Suicide is the leading cause of death among gay male, lesbian, bisexual and transsexual youth. Gay youth are 2 to 3 times more likely to attempt suicide than other young people. They may comprise up to 30 percent of completed youth suicides annually.
The root of the problem of gay youth suicide is a society that discriminates against and stigmatizes homosexuals while failing to recognize that a substantial number of its youth has a gay or lesbian orientation.
stats and quotes from Gay Male and Lesbian Suicide
By Paul Gibson L.C.S.W., Therapist and Program Consultant, San Francisco, California
CLICKHERE to see full article
Homophobia is one cause of premature sexual involvement, which increases the chances of teen pregnancy and the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. Young people, of all sexual identities, are often pressured to become heterosexually active to prove to themselves and others that they are "normal"
Warren J Blumenfeld, Homophobia: How We All Pay The Price (Beacon Press, 1992)
if you cant see how discussing sexuality can help prevent suicide and abortion then you're not really thinking about it
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batty
Family Madness
bright lights greedy city
REFLECTIONS
THE WINDMILLS OF MY MIND
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THE WORLD OF GAYE~
you are able to rise above and see more than one point of view; you have compassion and an open mind. the world needs more of you. these inate (and poignantly recognized, by you!) truths should be published in quote books. keep those truths a commin'.
Comment by postmoderncritic
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I totally doubt that your daughter's sex education teacher would have been pro-gay at the expense of heterosexuality. It sounds like your daughter's displeasure at the instructions in this lesson is more to do with what is going on within her than what is happening in the classroom. If someone told me that gay people were superior to straight people I would assess that person as misguided and probably not listen to them on the issue. There's no reason to get angry. Is anyone advocating that she turn homosexual? I don't think so. Teaching tolerance is a very important part of the classroom, and it sounds like your daughter can benefit from it.
I think the more likely scenario is that she's exaggerating because she found the endorsement of homosexuality distasteful. The idea that homosexuality is being "shoved in her face" sounds quite homophobic, and it would be sad to think she was.
I'm thinking, Don, would you permit me to ask your daughter what about her class she *really* found so distressing? Perhaps we can have a good discussion that might help her examine her attitudes on a deeper level, which would be beneficial for everybody.
Check out my blogs (PmC is the main one), I have been told I make a wonderful role model for people of all ages.
Comment by postmoderncritic
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P.S. I don't intend to discuss gay sexual practices with her.
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Comment by Don Lee
White Line Philosophy
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Let's hope that individual is feeling more at peace with themselves now, eh?
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Comment by Morgan Bell
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so when Don Lee said: